Home > Archive >PREVIEW: Fall Sale at Skinner Part II
Mon, Mar 25th, 2019 05:43:40 AM
Topic: PREVIEW: Fall Sale at Skinner Part II

Notwithstanding the nonsense protestations of “WB” and his objection to the Gendje provenance we suggested, let’s take a gander at a few more lots in this sale.

Lot 101, a Heriz carpet, wouldn’t normally interest us on any level since it is purely a commercial, decorative carpet.

However, what interests us here is not the carpet but the description. Why Gary Richards, Skinner’s carpet “expert” called this a Heriz Dragon Carpet is way beyond our imagination and we are wondering if it was beyond his as well. Since we have never heard, or read, of any Heriz, or Heriz area weaving, described as a Dragon rug we like to ask Mr. Richards to clue us, and our readership, into his rational for making up this absurd attribution. We are all ears, Gary, so fire away when ready.

He also dated the Heriz Dragon(sic) rug “early 20th century” and estimated it for $8,000-$10,000. Both statements we’ll leave unmolested, as these furnishing rugs and what they bring at auction interest us not.

We also question calling the charming Senneh fragment, lot 104, a “sampler”:

First off, while it is a obviously a fragment and as such naturally appears to be incomplete, believing that makes it a sampler just doesn’t compute, well at least in the calculations any knowledgeable person would make from the information at hand. But thinking, or equating as Richard’s has done, this incompleteness implies it being a sampler is even nuttier than his calling the Heriz rug a “Dragon Heriz”.

Since it is a fragment, we clearly recognize the possibility it originally could have been part of a sampler. But, honestly, we highly doubt that as well and should Mr. Richards be able to prove us wrong with any positive proof, other than the worthless type of arguments a troll like “WB” tried to advance, we would welcome his posting that info here.

As our readers know, RK.com is always willing to publicly state we were wrong and to accept responsibility for our errors.

By the way, we like the Senneh fragment and were we forced to bid and buy anything in this sale, it would be lot 104. However, since no-one is forcing us to bid on any lot in this Skinner sale, rest assured we will not be waving a plastic paddle or bidding in any other form on it or anything else.

The estimate for the “sampler” is $2,000- $2,500, which we feel might be a bit on the high side. Look for around $1,500 as a probable result.

The 12 gol Tekke torba, lot 106, is another piece we’d not mention were it not for the fact of the “early to mid-19th century” dating in the catalog:

Granted, 12 gol Tekke torbas are not often encountered, however, that in itself doesn’t mean they are early. In fact, we do not recall having never seen a one that predates the mid-19th century.

Again we might suggest Mr. Richard be more careful and not to allow his novice ideas about dating and provenance into the catalog descriptions.

We do not have much to say about this torba besides for the fact that it is a good example of the high quality even late, post 1850, genuine Turkmen weavings invariably demonstrate. The $2,000-$2,500 estimate is reasonable considering the clientele at Skinner rug sale is not as discriminating as those found in other auction houses.

Another Turkmen trapping, lot 109, would also fall far below RK’s radar screen were it not for the inexpert catalog description:

This chuval is clearly Kizil Ayak and not Tekke. While the fine points of identifying some Turkmen weavings are complex, or even impossible to ascertain, knowing that a piece like this is Kizil Ayak and not Tekke ain’t one of them. This chuval shouldn't stump anyone who sits in the expert’s chair in any rug department or shoppe and, frankly, we are surprised Mr. Richard has shown such a shallow level of understanding.

The last lot we chose for comment is 125 a soumak bag:

Bags with this design are fairly common and, were it not for our suspicions concerning its genuineness, it, too, would have not been chosen for scrutiny. But we do believe the chance it is a recent reproduction, made purely to deceive, is strong enough for us to mention it. Should we decide to make the drive to Boston and view the sale preview in person, rest assured we will be able to answer the question positively, as for now it is presented as only a supposition on our part. If we had a better higher resolution photo of the entire bag, it would allow us to answer this question more positively. But let us state once again for the record: Nothing can replace handling a rug in person. However, when we do make judgments, like this one, they are based on our more than 35 years of experience researching and collecting. And that, dear readers, is something we, and you, can trust.

Skinner’s sale, as usual, has nothing for the history books, nor does it offer anything other than some nice floor rugs and novice collector-type merch. We would never rain on that parade if an auction house like Skinner’s would call a spade a spade. But they, like all the other auction houses and hali magazine as well, would rather spin superlatives, hype, over-dating and silly provenances rather than present their offerings in a more accurate and truthful light.

Author: jc
Tue, Oct 4th, 2005 08:57:13 PM

Yesterday we spoke to a knowledgeable, well known and liked dealer in new york who has an office in one of the buildings.

After we exchanged hellos he asked me " Who is this Gary Richards?"

Before we could even get a word out, he continued "This guy is an idiot"

Well, we said what's this all about?

"I called him up the other day" the dealer said "and wanted to inform him the cover lot of the skinner sale is a reproduction. He a jerk because he didn't even want to listen to want I had to say. What kind of idiot is he anyway?"

We then asked him, even though we have known him for decades, "How long have you been in the rug business?" He said "27 years"

We then said " In that time haven't you learned a great majority of the people in the rug world are idiots, who don't really want to know the truth or are too dense and full of themselves to even be able to learn it if they did.”

He said "You know, you're right but, really, how can someone who is the head of a sales department for a major auction house be completely disinterested in learning the truth, considering he doesn't already know it".

We replied "Gary Richards at skinners is no different than the person who sits in the chairs at sothebys, whether at NY or London, or at Christies in NY."

As an aside we should mention Will Robinson at Christies London is, in our estimation the best of the bunch, although fat-head detlef matlzan of rippon-boswell would, we are sure, argue that point into the night.

The NY dealer then went on to comment how the skinner cover piece is clearly a fake. As he finished, we had to stop him from rattling off all the other specious lots in their sale as well.

We ended the conversation by recounting the old pearls before swine adage to him and suggested he not bother to speak to these supposed experts to try and enlighten them, as it is only a waste of a dime and breath. 'Nuff said.

Author: jc
Tue, Oct 4th, 2005 10:31:01 AM

Big talk, no walk.

We have had other loud mouthed morons, for instance michael bishoff, like "WB" try to best us with their futile attempts to bust our open forum policy. Others, like professor clown, have tried to prove we don't know what we claim to.

None of these mini-brained fops have succeeded in proving anything but their own limitations and stupendous stupidity. All have gone skulking away, to return to their little cribs to cry alone into their beer glasses.

We wouldn't be surprised if "WB" made another run at us but we are prepared to parry any assault on our knowledge or integrity and, perhaps even, mount a counter-offensive of our own.

As for our challenge to professor price=clown to demonstrate one original thought he has developed concerning carpets we, too, are not surprised he has remained mute, for he too knows what we have said about him is true.

On another note, we are planning some interesting discussions for this fall that we hope our readers will not only find enlightening but also enjoyable.

Author: Warrior Bros
Mon, Oct 3rd, 2005 08:21:11 AM

RK'S Reply: Guess your at work now in D.C., right?
You can go to a 100 different computers to post your prattle here but each time you do we will block you and with each new computer you use we will get closer to identifying you.

"WB" you are like a stupid petty thief who leaves his drivers license on the kitchen table of the house he broke into. To call you a fool is giving you way too much credit.

So keep up the game, take some Viagra to get your balls up to the contest you are now enmeshed in with us.

Remember winning a few minor skirmiches does not equate to winning the war. And you, little man, will soon be carpet-bombed back into insignificance.

So keep looking over your shoulder, we might even be there now.

And by the way we are flattered you are using our word, dingo.

1: Listen up Dingo!,this is your field but the balls are mine!, if you like to play with my balls in your field ,you got to strike it hard, if you strike my balls then you may do a HOME RUN !, you will lose the game,red sucks !, Knowing my name wont help you, no body will give you medal of honer. 2:You do not discuss things in your site, you think that you know alot,you did not show your readers any significant Gendje Design in Skinner 's rug, all bullshit, you lost the game already, what are you talking about, loser !, i would not play the game if i wouldn't win. LOSER!. 3:You are like a dictator, you dont let people discuss things with you,you must be Megalomaniyac, VIVA DEMOKRASI !.

Author: Warner Bros
Sun, Oct 2nd, 2005 03:37:41 PM

RK's reply: "WB": OK we are now modifying our software to prevent you from playing your unhook the modem game and getting a new IP address to post your drivel here again. Soon it will be in place and, to post here again, you will have to leave your shack in Burke, Virginia and travel some distance to find a new hookup if you want to post here.

Remember, dingo, this is our field, bat and ball and we will win, trust us.

BTW, we are getting closer to finding out who you are...don't forget we have been in the rug world for a long time and know many people. As soon as we have the time to contact some other folks we know we will have your name, address and phone number.

So once again enjoy your moment in our glow and get ready to eat your words and spend some of the little money you have on gas to try and get outside our IP ban.

Here is "WB's" last post from his crib in Burke Virginia.: LOSER !!!!

Author: WB
Sun, Oct 2nd, 2005 02:57:02 PM

RK's reply:"WB":
You are obviously on a cable moden, or dsl, so each time you hook up you can get a new IP. We can ban them all but actually we will just continue on your trail and, trust us, we will find out who you are soon.

When we do you and I can discuss any matter you like, in fact, I look forwad to the opportunity.

So for now enjoy your short moment basking in the reflection I cast but know there is also a large dark shadow that comes with it.

And by the way, WB, I have been in the rug world for a RK's Replylong time and you, little man, are but a speck of doo doo on the bottom of my shoes.

You are an insolent, ingorant twerp, just like many so-called rug collectors and dealers. During our time we have seen many of them come and go and that, WB, will undoubtedly be your destiny as well. Enjoy

Jack, You are a loser you know that,as i told you before , we don't need such a jerk like you in rug world,go find some thing else to play with or just bark like a dog by your self bud nobody listening you this conversation be coming boring. i am leaving you alone!. LOSER !!!!. Warner Bros.

Author: WB
Sun, Oct 2nd, 2005 11:07:27 AM

RK's reply:

Listen up "WB": your position and comments have been untenaable from the get-go. Your quoting me is as inacccurate as your abilities to know anything about an old rug.

We are on the way to finding out who you are and as soon as we do we will expose you here for the fool and ignorant you are. So go peddle your pedagogical BS somewhere else. If you persist we will ban you, in fact, we have just decided to ban you from coming here for the next day or so. We will release the ban on monday night and you can then visit us but should you again start this nonsense BS it will become permanent.

And FYI my saying it was the design under the mirhab was significant was never meant to be the only factor just a very obvious one. And it still is, as the mediocre pseudo Talish rug, you so proudly posted here, is, like the skinner piece, just a piece of early airport art.

Enjoy it with your TV dinners and the rest of your, what we are sure is an, inconsequential collection of dyed woven wool.

YOU SAID :It is not the mirhab, bub, it is the design contained in the niche under it that is significant.

See, the design that you mentioned not a significant Gendje design, atleast you learned that part.

I sure you understand that you were wrong, but such a person like you will newer admit his mistake.Dont wory you will get over it! I love you Jack !

Author: jc
Sat, Oct 1st, 2005 11:37:49 AM

Our webmaster has made a copy of your rug and we are posting it here:

Well, where to begin, ‘WB’?

Clearly you are someone, like many 'collectors and 'dealers', who doesn't have alot of hands on knowledge of Caucasian rugs. You, like many, have read books, seen auction catalogs and perhaps attended some exhibitions. But how many rugs have you actually touched and experienced in the flesh?

We believe not enough to have developed the strong comprehension the very difficult subject provenancing any old oriental rug requires.

We will agree your rug has a number of design characteristics similar to those found in Talish area weavings. However, we are willing to bet your rug is not a Talish.

It appears to us to be a Karabagh and we will stick to that declaration until perhaps one day we could see it in person. But we are sure enough of our assessment to believe doing that will not change anything.

First off your rug is not very old, mid-19th century at the oldest and few, if any real Talish rugs were made at that time. The mirhab layout and positioning clearly denote that your rug is not pre-1850.

Secondly, while we can't touch your rug the photo you posted on the web is convincing enough, thanks to the good size image we then copied and made smaller for RK.com's discussion board, to assure us the wool quality is not that found in Talish weaving but rather more like a Karabagh.

Plus the colors, again since we can't see them in person we are extrapolating, are nowhere near those of really old Talish weaving and, in fact, even those found in the few mid-later 19th century examples of Talish rugs that are known.

It is clear the weavers working in the Talish area did not make many later rugs, at least ones we can relate and call Talish as compared to the early ones that gave this area its claim to fame.

There are a number of other points we could cite but frankly WB why should we educate you?

RK.com wants to spread understanding and appreciation for antique Oriental rugs but we are not willing to teach the world what we know, especially for free.

So trust us on this one, WB, your rug, like the skinner piece, is not a Talish.

Your rug is, however, a far better and somewhat earlier piece than the skinner one and we prefer it. But we don't actually like it as anything other than what it is -- a reflection of earlier types and styles that is nothing more than a pastiche of unrelated forms and designs.

Author: WB
Sat, Oct 1st, 2005 08:36:57 AM


Here is the link you can see my Talish rug,


Author: jc
Fri, Sep 30th, 2005 02:13:00 PM


Post a photo of your rug in the photos for discussion part of the KAZBAH area, or email a photo to jc@rugkazbah.com., and we will look it over to see if you are correct in calling it a Talish.

If you do this we will then agree to continue this worthless discussion with you.

If not and you post anything at all here again on RK.com we will ban you from accessing this site.

We have you IP address already(it is located in Virginia) and can prevent you from ever posting here again. This ban will also prevent you from even visiting our site and viewing any of the pages therein.

Or, as we suggested, post under your real name, or email it to me if you do not want anyone else to know--and we will respect your privacy.

The choice is yours but if you do not comply with our requirements you will not be able to visit us here again.

Is that clear enough now?

Author: WB Fri, Sep 30th, 2005 01:15:34 PM

Jack, Whether you like my english or not ,wich i do not mind, that is how i talk , try to understand or ignore it, do what ever you like to do. I am clearly telling you that I HAVE A TALISH RUG THAT HAVE SAME DESIGN UNDER THE MIHRAP AND CRAP DESIGN IN THE FIELD, and you are saying that design is SIGNIFICANT gendje rug wich is not thru. If i would tell you that i do not like you ,would you enjoy it. I can't tell you my name at this moment. But i am not American, that's all i can say.

Author: jc
Fri, Sep 30th, 2005 11:38:07 AM

"WB": Obviously your ability to comprehend what you read is as poor as your faked lousy English. Here is what was originally written about the mirhab:
"Remember the shape of the Mirhab and the drawing within it are typical for Gendje, not Talish...and on and on."

Here's the end of this droll story you have created:
If you persist in writing in to RK.com wasting my time about this rug, especially using the fake pidgin English you seem to think is cute, we will ban you from participating.

But if you identify yourself and present some cogent arguments, we can continue this discussion.

Failing to do the above and posting again will guarantee your being banned from this site.

Is that clear enough for you now?

PS: Go get a puppy and shower your love on it, nitwit.

Author: WB
Fri, Sep 30th, 2005 09:17:16 AM

Mr. Jack,
First, you were claiming the Mihrap and now the design in the niche under it?,bub, i have that design in my Talish rug and you can see that design many caucasion rugs!,now what, wool qualty, weaving, i bet you you did not even check the wool qualty and the weaving of the rug.


Author: jc
Thu, Sep 29th, 2005 12:46:44 PM

It is not the mirhab, bub, it is the design contained in the niche under it that is significant

Plus it's the wool quality, which of course can not be determined from a picture, that is an important aspect of any determination as to this rug's production area
But we are sure the wool is not of the specific type that characterizes all genuinely old Talish weavings
By the way this prayer is not very old, late 19th century at the earliest

And how about doing us a favor and abstaining from using pigdin English, it's boring and dumb considering we'd bet you are fakin' it

Author: WB
Thu, Sep 29th, 2005 09:11:20 AM

You are very kind and generos, i will consider your offer very seriously.
I have a question about Talish rug, could you please ! tell me what made you think that is a Gendje rug, as i mention it before, i have a similar rug wich has Talish Weaving, you can see that design in shirvan rugs even kazak rugs, crap design used in many caucasion rug, the mihrap, you can see many shirvans even kazak rugs, the bordur , you can see most caucasion rugs, you dont know the weaving if it is Talish or Gendje, how come you are telling that it is a gendje rug.

Author: WB
Wed, Sep 28th, 2005 03:51:48 PM

Hey "WB":
Frankly we don't care what it looks like to you, as we know while you just guess.
But we will make this offer to you: If you sign your real name to your next post we will give you a FREE subscription to RK.com. How's that for generosity?

Mr. Jack, So what happend ?,i was away for a couple of days, are you still insest that it is a Gendje ?. I still think you are wrong.it looks to me Talish. WB

Author: Cevat Kanig
Mon, Sep 26th, 2005 04:08:13 PM

listen up cevat:
if you persist in using poor choices of words when you pay these unwanted visits here we will have to take other measures to help you to understand we are serious.

You are free to have whatever stupid ideas you have and spill them in front of whomever you wish, just forget about doing it here.

You are a jack***, that is all i can say about you. DONT BOTHER ME BY CALLING ME AGAIN!!!!. JACK***!.

Author: jc
Mon, Sep 26th, 2005 08:14:08 AM

We checked the IP addresses of "WB" posts and agree with the possibility the shadow's statement is correct, especially after reading the last post's fractured use of the English language.

Author: the shadow
Mon, Sep 26th, 2005 06:32:40 AM

WB is our old friend Cevat. He lives and works in the Virginia and DC area. Doesn't the language give it away?

Author: WB Sun, Sep 25th, 2005 02:15:42 PM

Mr,Jack, I am not talking nonsense but you are, people makes fun of you, i do not know what kind of idiots taking seriosly of your site, i accidently drop here, i know rugs! you dont know, i succest you go find some thing else as a hobby, we dont need idiots like you in the rug world.

Author: jc
Sun, Sep 25th, 2005 10:30:25 AM

Greetings "Paul":

If you are a long time reader of RK.com you will perhaps remember reading a number of posts dealing with the problem of reproduction soumak bags. One thing is sure; there have been many fakes on the market in Europe and the USA over the past 10 years or so.

We'd suggest you, or anyone else who is equally interested, have another, or first time, read thru them as they can still be found on the discussion board and in the "Archive" topic area, as well.

As for this example let's list a few of the aspects that imply to us this bag isn't "right".

1. the drawing is too rote and regular, for instance the motifs in the field are too large and pushed too close together. Check other bags of this type and you will see our objections to the proportions seen here are well founded.

2. the liberal use of bright color, white and yellow, creates a level of "contrast" rarely witnessed in genuinely old soumak bags. This garishness would not be found, in our opinion, in a soumak where the weaver was able to produce such a carefully articulated design, even though that articulation is rote, regular and lacking proper proportion as mentioned above.

3. the extra inner minor border that is between the field and main border, while not unheard of in genuinely old soumak bags, is normally found in later 19th century examples. However, the drawing seen in this bag, especially the "animals" in the field, has an earlier -- pre-late 19th century -- look and style. This contradiction of form, earlier drawing in the motifs in the field and that later style of adding an extra inner minor border (perhaps there is even another one on the other side between the main border and the selvedge) signals to us the strong possibility this is a reproduction.

4. We also question the disparity between the drawing of the main border that is extremely stiff and cloddish and that of, again, the main motifs in the field. It would be hard to find a genuinely old soumak bag that shows the disparity of drawing skill we see here.

We must reiterate our suspicions here are just that-- suspicions -- unlike other times when we have flatly declared a piece to be repro and fake.

Should anyone have a high-resolution jpeg of this piece and email to us we will be glad to us it to either confirm our suspicions or state our error in suspecting the piece to be a reproduction.

Short of that happening, or our going to Boston to view the sale in person, we will stand by our opinion it is not "right" as stated above.

Author: Paul Sat, Sep 24th, 2005 08:03:25 PM

Hi, What's your basis for suspecting lot 125 is a repo? Paul

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