Home > Rug, Kelim, Soumak, Textile Post Archive >Sourcing a Turkmen Motif
email: jc@rugkazbah.com
Mon, Dec 11th, 2006 10:44:21 AM
Topic: Sourcing a Turkmen Motif

Being that it is Xmas time and this season is a time of gift-giving, RK felt it might be a propos for us to give our readership a little present.

Here it is:

We are sure the more astute will instantly recognize the motif -- it is one that appears on countless Turkmen chuval elem panels.

It also appears in other guises as well and referring to it as ubiquitous in the Turkmen design lexicon would not be farfetched.

We have often wondered where this motif originated and when we found this Ottoman reed and wool shield with this motif so prominently emblazoned we were not totally surprised.

We have often surmised the connections between early Turkmen and "Turkish" weavings are manifest and that this area of inquiry remains little recognized or explored.

We have been aware of this for a long time and, of course, our research in this area concerns far more than tracing this design.

In fact, those inquiries led to the discovery of this shield and motif.

We feel this is quite a discovery, as the motif in question rarely appears in this exact form anywhere outside the Turkmen weaving genre.

We do not for a minute buy the conventional interpretation of this motif, i.e. that is it a tree-of-life. And, although we are not sure what else it might be, we are sure that well-worn and tired definition does not apply here.

The shield is an early one, pre-1600, and it is conserved in a municipal Museum collection in Italy.

The shield has another motif which bears important connections to/with Turkmen weaving iconography as well but since we don’t want to be too generous and spoil y'all, we will keep refrain from making it public at this time.

Author: Anon
Mon, Dec 11th, 2006 10:44:21 AM

RK Replies:

Responding to kanig’s most recent attempt at dribbling his fractured English language skill is a waste of energy.

Though your grammar is better you, too, display almost as great a lack of intellectual promise.

Regardless of that detail, we will reply to you:
While neither the wool and reed shield or the relief kanig cited are exactly like the Turkmen motif there should be little argument the iconography on the shield is far closer.

Also note the elem with the "tree" we picked out for illustration was the closest one at hand. It surely was not meant to be the "representative”, as there are a vast multitude of other "interpretations" we could have just as easily shown.

But, mind you, none of those bear more congruity with kanig’s reference, in fact, most are again closer to the shield’s motif.

We do not feel it necessary to "point" out the salient reasons the shield and not the plaque is congruous -- we'd hope more astute readers than you, Anon, will be able to do that without our assistance.

But just for grins, why don't you try to strain your gray matter a bit more? We are sure, if you do attempt this, even you will come to see our logic.


RKCOM You think the design on the reed shield looks closer to the Turcoman motif than it does to the design Kanig put on? You're joking, of course. You are joking, aren't you? You are some kidder, alright.

Author: CK
Mon, Dec 11th, 2006 06:16:34 AM

Ooh My lord! i did not know that how Moran you are, Rocky, You are a realy Moran can not see the bare truth, i don't understant wich way is your logic works.

Author: CK
Sun, Dec 10th, 2006 08:01:01 PM

RK Replies:

Here is the image you cite as comparable:

You know, little man, the more you post here, the easier it is to understand your problems.

Your main ones are weak logic and faulty intellect.

Let's remember, the motif from the shield was posted to help reference this :

Producing the “the tree with the waving branches” might show some insight were this the target:

Alas, master canig, it is not but even if it were you’d still have to contend with those two “horses”.

No mind, no mind.

Can’t you get it together to realize anyone can cut-and-paste pictures that look like but aren’t.

The only similarity between the imagery the elem motif and shield bear with “yours” is a “tree”.

Well, cevat, trees grow in Brooklyn and dogs piss on them.

And it's tree of liFe, not liVe.


Rocky! It appears that you are so dummy because you are not aware that I presented that design in 2006 on ****. Below image is 7, 6th Century BC, about 2700 years old, I can even bring you older than that but first you should admit that how dummy you are.


Author: Kore-eda Hirokazu
Sun, Dec 10th, 2006 12:07:05 PM

RK Replies:

canig, you dummy. Still think you are foolin’ anyone. You can post anonymously or with a pseudonym but you can’t hide the fact you are a dummy, no matter how hard you search for open ports to post from. Think the people in Korea whose server you posted this from appreciate your trespass? Think not, again.

But, now, just for yuks why don’t you post a reference to “that design” from Anatolia that is even 2ooo years old.

And don’t bother with those Luristan Bronzes, they are not the source. Rather, those Luristan Bronzes -- with arms, animals and “human” figures --are, like the Turkmen motif we cited, derived from the source we speak of.

Even a simpleton like you can understand that, right?


That is not a new discovery mister! That design is originated to Anatolia and have thousands years of Background.

Author: Kore-eda Hirokazu
Sat, Dec 9th, 2006 06:43:35 PM

(ed. Act like a child and get treated like one)

Author: Investor/Rug Lover
Sat, Dec 9th, 2006 12:30:39 PM

RK Replies:

What's all the secrecy about, sir/madam?

If you are bona-fide you would gladly reveal who you are, especially since we offered you the opportunity to do it privately, by direct email to us.

Frankly, we doubted the veracity of your post from the get-go and, just to clarify whether or not our feelings were correct, we made the offer to you contained in the post below.

And by the way "rug investor/lover" running behind your so-called "sensitivity" issue demonstrates, for more clearly than your misgotten excuses, you're as bogus as that proverbial three-dollar bill.

Go cash your chips in elsewhere, sonnyboy/girl, that is if you even have any worth cashing.

Yesshhh, what BS and self-righteousness...


Dear Mr. Cassin, If I wanted my identity and location known, I would have revealed them myself. I offered to assist you in reaching what I thought was one of your major goals, but your main interest appears to be my identity and showing everyone how clever you are in being able to track down those who post here. This is not going to work out; you will have to find other, less sensitive donors.

Author: Investor/Rug Lover
Sat, Dec 9th, 2006 10:34:40 AM

RK Replies:

We noticed you are posting from outside of the USA, from Denmark specifically.

We will be glad to discuss our ideas with you, however, we would require you identify yourself before we can consider continuing.

We suggest you email:
with your contact information.

Once we have received your reply we will be delighted to explain the methodology we have determined will yield the best results.

We will also be delighted to explain our thoughts on other relevant topics.


Dear Mr. Cassin, I have contacts who may be able to help advance your worthy cause. As specifically as possible, can you tell me which forensic methods you believe will be useful, how much money it will take to make significant progress, and how much you've raised toward that end so far? The group on whose behalf I am asking is unwilling to do even preliminary explorations without this background information. Thank you.

Author: jc
Sat, Dec 9th, 2006 07:34:28 AM

We have received several emails asking about the age of the shield.

Please note: It has been dated by the Museum to the mid-16th century, a date we would believe to be correct.

While on the subject of dating, let us once again reiterate our belief a few Turkmen rugs we know of also date, or even pre-date, such an early period. We know this flies in the face of "conventional rug-wisdom” but, when faced with the cold hard facts, it appears to us it would be impossible for there not to have been rugs made then and, of course, for some to have ultimately survived.

Albeit, we grant these ancestor Turkmen weavings are very few and far between but to doubt or deny their existence is, once again in our opinion, foolhardy and myopic.

The historical record firmly supports our contention concerning the existence of 400 year old and, even older, Turkmen weavings.

In that regard, and if things go as planned, the next exhibition on the Weaving Art Museum website will present a scholarly examination of the historic record of tribal movement and settlement in south-west Turkestan.

Let us also state: If there has been only one innovative idea established by the past 30 years of investigation in this area it has proven, beyond any reasonable doubt mind you, a number of examples pre-date the late 18th/circa 1800 dating deemed so radical in the mid-1970's when new interest in early Turkmen weavings reached a high-water mark.

While we will admit little has been publicly aired since then to broaden the suggested perimeters of such an ancient weaving tradition, important research has continued and some of this will, we believe, soon become available .

But regardless of the release of this information there will be no proof positive, or anything approaching that level, until the program of intensive, forensic, scientific testing RK and the Weaving Art Museum have lobbied for will be undertaken.

We realize it's a long hard road that needs to be traversed but when, or should we say if, we are given the financial support such a project entails, we are 100 percent positive we will produce results that will make C14 dating for historic rugs look like the parlor game we have so often remarked it appears to be.

The presentation of this shield’s “Turkmen” motif, as well as the other one we have not published, are but tantalizing hors d'œuvre to the feast of fancy RK imagines will be laid out when our Turkmen database of forensic information will one day be completed.

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