RK REPLIES:

The originator of this thread, mr jack williams, has proven himself to be a rug-moron of supreme stature.

His opinions are as worthless as those of Virginia Commonwealth University professor, steev price=clown and the rest of price's mule team of chirping rug magpies.

RK is weary of their BS and inability to realize learning about antique rugs is not accomplished by memorizing, or cutting and pasting what has been written by others, who though published, know as little as they.

Nor is it possible to gain knowledge at the knee of someone like price or many of the other rug world so-called and acclaimed experts.

Learning about antique rugs requires time, effort and an unprejudiced mind -- something all these wanna-be rug collectors, and experts, sorely lack.

There are many in rugdom who likewise believe as true the hype, crapola, malarcky, and nonsense published in hali, many books or dispensed at icoc or acor meets.

This is one of the main reasons rugdom is deaf, dumb and blind to any reality.

We have decided to critique a number of articles in the latest issue of hali, number 152, for just that reason.

Frankly RK couldn't give a damn about what anyone thought of the chuval we posted on EBAY. It was done as an experiment and the results have been as we expected.

Perhaps, someday we will discuss our motivations for posting it but the food-fight the Tekke chuval elicited, and the absurd comments like williams's, demonstrate how lost in the sauce most rug collectors are and how unable they are to remove themselves from the prejudice, stupidity, unquestioned commercialism and in-group promotion that rules rug collecting.

RK will not discuss the chuval any more unless we feel the tenor of discussion is miles above that which has already taken place.

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Do the right thing cASSin....give the money back and ADMIT you are either INCOMPETENT or a SCAM ARTIST. I see your chuval sold. When the buyer gets it and checks it against what you advertised, I wouldn’t be surprised if he demands his money back (assuming you or your shill is not the high-bidder). Why? ... The kpsi advertised by you, 168), and the warp:weft, horizontal:vertical ratio advertised (1:1.2) appear to be so completely wrong that it is reasonable to assume deliberate fraud or incompetence. From the posted pictures on T-u-r-k-t-e-c-k, it appears to me that the true density kpsi seems to be about 300 kpsi, and the true h:v ratio is about 1:2.5. The chuval’s overly-ornate border, it’s true weave density, and it’s true h:v ratio indicate it is at best, likely a very late 19th c. early 20th c. Tekke weave,not pre-1850. It may even be a recent fake...but it certainly does not have the near-square ratio and more rounded guls that are usually characteristic of early 19th c. Tekke weavings, as claimed by you in your eBay description of the rug. Cassin, from comparing the pictures to your description, I conclude that either you cannot figure out the basic structure of a rug, in which case you are a RUG IDIOT and FAKE, or you deliberately posted erroneous data...in which case you are a CHEATER, LIAR, and a FAKE. Do the right thing cASSin....give the money back and ADMIT you are either INCOMPETENT or a SCAM ARTIST. Truth

Dear George, You need to allow for the English sense of humour - we don't take ourselves too seriously. It is as good a method as any for a non-expert. Have you ever tried it? No? Then don't criticise what you don't understand. JC, I am sure, uses his vast experience to date rugs. I admit to not being an expert so I have to use my own methods which are much more fun than counting knots. Try it. I am still waiting for an acknowledged expert to call JC out and declare his rug to be 20th century. Yes, I know how ebay auctions work and my preference is to follow the bidding - I guess I can get a bit competitive.

By the way John, the way EBay works is that you can bid your maximum price on your first and only bid, and still win the item. Since you say you bid, and the item sold to someone else for about $1200 it means that you bid less than that. So I suppose that you don't think a pre-1850 Tekke chuval in excellent condition is worth more than $1200. Curious... George.

Dear John, If I read your post correctly you said that the "most reliable way" to date a pre-1850 chuval is to see if it "waves" when you are stoned. By reliable, do you mean that it is the most reproducible and accurate way of dating a rug? Do you really believe that? If so, how do you know it? What is the number of pre-1850 chuvals that you have reliably dated using this method? Has the method been verified by anyone else? Finally, I would like to know if Mr. Cassin, a self-described expert also uses this method or whether he uses other less reliable methods to estimate dates. Frankly, this single declaration by you about dating pre-1850 chuvals (using the "stone and wave" technique) tells me and other readers quite a bit about the validity of your assertions vis-a-vis Turkmen weavings. Finally, please post any of your waving pre-1850 chuvals that you have been collecting so we can see if we at least agree with your own results. George.

Hi George, I did bid and was travelling when the item closed. I am not an obsessive that has to own every pre-1850 tekke chuval in the world, but always happy to have 1 or 2 more. The buyer got a good deal - he was clearly happy otherwise he wouldn't have bought it. But whether he got a good deal or not is irrelevant. My main objections to the postings I have seen were to the comments about the age. There were similar inane comments from the **** lot about another old tekke chuval a few months ago. I am banned from **** for daring to suggest that the turkmen used drugs and that old chuvals "wave" if viewed when stoned. This is probably the most effective way of dating a chuval. The professor dismissed my observations without repeating the experiment - most scientists undertake experiments. Anyway, I am still waiting for an aknowledged expert to call this one out as being substantially later than 1850. My offer to the buyer stands.

Hey John, You said that if the buyer didn't want it, you would take it off his hands. That seems an odd position to take now, and seems a bit discourteous to the seller, Mr. Cassin. I am sure he would have appreciated it if you would have taken the time to show your interest by bidding on the item. This might have been the most widely advertised EBay sale of a Tekke chuval in recent memory, given its prominence on different Discussion forums. Interesting that none of the gallery of Turkmen collectors and dealers were willing to pay more than $1200 for what you and Mr. Cassin assert is such an important piece, even though it was almost complete and in very good shape. I am CURIOUS, why didn't you buy it when you had a chance if it was such a bargain???? Simeon George

Anyone who knows anything about tekke chuvals would date this to 1850 or earlier. It is a nice one, excellent condition with an interesting border. If the buyer decides he doesn't want it at the price he paid I'll take it off his hands. You seem to suffer from a rage problem. I cannot blame JC for reacting to your inanity.