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Author:Aykhan Mammadov
email:
Thu, Nov 7th, 2013 08:06:00 PM
Topic: The trooth

RK Replies:

Greetings, Aykhan:

First off let us state our general unfamiliarity with the main issue you present.

It is precisely for the reasons you enumerate that RK avoids concentrating on historical references to try and understand weavings. We concentrate on the weaving themselves and their relationships to other of similar, as well as dissimilar, types.

We leave history to historians because the validity of historic references is always something to question.

You are probably standing on strong ground when you state your position vis--vis the Armenian carpet-question. However, this issue and your desire to see it corrected is something that is not of much interest to RK.

That said we will be delighted to give you a forum, and a readership, to do with as you wish. The only requirement is your presenting factual information that can be independently verified.

So please be sure to always cite your references(as you have done in your post below).

Please do not use this forum to discuss politics, only carpets as RK will not allow the use of our facilities for partisan gain.

As for mr oCONnel?

Well, we have written about him and his sorely deficient rug expertise.

Frankly, we believe o,CONnell is about a pathetic a rug commentator as is Virginia Commonwealth University professor steve, the rug-dummy, price.

On a personal note let RK say we look forward to more of your comments on the Armenian rug-question you have posed and if you would like to email us please do so at:

RK@rugkazbah.com.

=============================

HI,

My name is Aykhan Mammadov. I live in Baku-capital of Azerbaijan Republic, independent country formed in the result of Soviet Union ( USSR) crash in 1991 ( one of 15, and one of 3 in Caucasus).

My predecessors - mother , father, their fathers and mothers, and etc... all are from GAZAKH region of Azerbaijan, they were born there ( I was born in Baku).Yes, Gazakh exists. It is the name of the region of Azerbaijan, that is all.

Similar to states in USA. But there is not ethnic group such as Gazakhs, they are absolute Azeri-Turks. Similar to the fact that there is not Californians as nation, there is not Gazakh ethnic group, there are Azeris and Americans.

Gaz means in ALL Turkish languages Goose and Akh means White, that is Gazakh means White Goose - it is armorial bearing used on flag of some of Oguz Turkish tribes.

That is the following similarity is not accidental - "Kazakhstan" Republic and "Gazakh" ( Kazakh) region in Azerbaijan.

There are a few nations living in Azerbaijan - Azeri-Turks (main and majority), Talyshs, Tats, Kurds, Lezgins, Ukrainians, Russians, lived many Armenians but they were expatriated after next-in turn betrayal.

I'm not professional in carpets, just began to check what is what and was looking for a carpet for my house as suddenly found the site www.spongobongo.com founded by O'Connel.

I have noticed the following "Armeniziation" and falsification of the reality in his pages about Caucasian carpets concerning Rugs from Gazakh and some other regions of Azerbaijan.

" This is not to say however that Kazaks wove the rugs that we call Kazak. The rugs we see are mostly post 1830 when most of the weavers of Kazak rugs were Armenians."

This is the LIE.

Armenians never were carpet makers, I even checked with people in age lived in Gazakh region of Azerbaijan. There lived some Armenians in Gazakh (formerly in Elizavetpol Gubernia of Russia) beginning from times when Russians moved them from Persia and Turkey to Caucasus, but they were mainly traders, shoe makers, and builders. U can read the letter of Russian ambassador in Persia and famous poet A.S. Griboedov to general Paskevich in 1828 proving such an immigration.

The author James Barry O'Connel is happy. He writes that he called to the Armenian George Bournoutian ( see here http://www.spongobongo.com/Cauc1.htm ) and that the professor agreed with him. It is interesting to know what could he expect from the guy who is Armenian by nationality ?

Could that Armenian tell that " No, we don't have any relationship to Azeri-Turkish carpets" when all Armenians in the world are busy with that how to call Azerbaijan music as their, Azerbaijan territories as their, and to prove that there were not Azeris in Caucasus, and that whole Caucasus must belong to them and etc..?

What could tell the representative of the nation which is dedicated itself to the falsification of the history ?

Every carpet specialist knows that Tebriz rugs are woven in Azerbaijan province of Iran ( in Iran officially 24% of the population are Azeris, and in Azerbaijan province probably 90%), that Heriz carpets are made in Azerbaijan, that it is old Azeri-Turkish tradition existing today in Gazakh, Garabakh, Shirvan, Guba and etc... , why to write suddenly that those carpets were woven by Armenians knowing that this Azerbaijan tradition is very ancient?

And why to concentrate, Mr. O'Connel just on carpets after 1830, how about those prior to 1830, say in 1800, and why to mention that in general ?

And what is more important - the world permanently DOES SEE that these carpets are living, new rugs appear every day - from Baku, Shirvan, Gazakh, Tebriz, Heriz, but the world doesn't see and doesn't know what is Armenian carpets, Azeri tradition lives and continues, as well as Turkmen, Uzbek, Turkish, Fars ( Persian) tradition.

His proof - kameralnaya opis doesn't show the number of weavers in Elizavetpolskaya Guberniya ( Gazakh and Akstafa were in Elizavetpolskaya Guberniya, see http://maps.genealogia.ru/maps/map_m_elisavet_jpg.htm ) ,it shows Erivanskaya Guberniya and Mahal( ?? what is Mahal, in Azeri-turkish Mehle means a court) , moreover rarely it could be serious and precise, because in doezns of villages of Gazakh doezns of families woove rugs from ancient times, and rarely in 1829-1830 during Permanent Russian-Turkish, Russian-Persian wars, during massive immigration of Armenians into Caucasus really somebody could precisely go house by house to every family in every village to check how many red or blue dyers do they have.

Isn't it ridiculous ?

And I don't know where are originals of those kameralnaya opis and were not they written by same Armenians.

I'm asking the following.

Imagine that u have dedicated some article and page in yr site to toreadors of Spain where at some times of the history lived some quantity of say Indian peoples. But is such a fact so important that u'd remark it on the page dedicated to Spain and their culture ?

Of course, not.

And if further, suddenly u'd state that all toreadors after the year 1830 were Indians, all Spanish people will just smile.

So isn't it ridiculous that all Azerbaijan rugs are accompanied by recalling "Armenians" in this regard just because beginning from 1800+ they were moved by Russians into Caucasus? Where are then for example Georgians, why not to recall Lezghins and etc. who always lived there ???

That is it is personal job of Mr. O'Connel to write what he wants, but in my opinion the authority can't write unchecked facts.

That is, Sirs please don't let Armenians cheat u, at least don't rely neither on Armenian data, nor on Azeri data, only on your eyes and facts how u see it today.

If it is interesting what happened in Caucasus u can read the book of somebody independent - neither Armenian, nor Azeri, say Russian specialist Velichko ( his book of 1901):

it is small file 472 kB.

http://www.mns.gov.az/download/KAVKAZ_Eng.pdf

Also try to find Armenia on this map:

http://www.geocities.com/Athens/Sparta/3976/webmap4.jpg Any response and objections are appreciated.

With Best regards,
Aykhan Mammadov,
Azerbaijan, Baku.

Author: tabriz
email: kafkaz95@yahoo.it
Thu, Nov 7th, 2013 08:06:00 PM

correction of my precedent comment: "you can't see traditionally armenian or georgian rug traders in around of the world" or in iran neither in turkey and azerbaijan.

Author: tabriz
email: kafkaz95@yahoo.it
Thu, Nov 7th, 2013 07:44:11 PM

i'm collector of antique rugs that is obvious armenians can't have antient rug tradition.

last 1000 years the art of rugs in iran and caucasus created by saljuks turkic dynasty in iranian province of azerbaijan capital tabriz.

in the time marco polo 13' sec tabriz's covered bazar was the capital of the world of trading and marcopolo described the marvelous rugs and silks ect.

most big famous antique rugs are the rugs of ardabil (louvr) and hunter rug(italy) 16'sec always from ardabil (iranian azerbaijan).

the design of caucasus rugs are oriental origines from turks. dragon of karabag, for exaple can't to be consider armenian tradition!

it is ridicolouse to say that! dragon is turkics and chines mitology and believes.

all names of rugs are turkics: borcialu karabagh karachop shikli ganja...

lori-pambak is also iranian name(lori tribe) and pambak(turkic=pambek=cotton? my tought).

the origine of caucasian geometric and zoomorfolgy designs of rugs are turkic traditions.

no body in christian culture created the rugs neither near russia.

but some body call turkoman and caucasian rugs russian rugs.

that is fasfication of history.

you can traditionally see armenian or georgian rug traders in around of the world.

they learned from us and product those some rugs.

armenian learned in iran to do lilian floreal rugs but designs are safavid iranian azeri turk culture from shah ismail and shah abbas periods.

in the same way they learned azerbaijanian geometrical designs and rugs.

witout hate.

Author: jc
email:
Mon, Jan 23rd, 2012 11:10:51 PM

RK Replies:

Well hello there "grandpa":

How's LA, the city of angels, treating you? Has the city given you that free wheelchair you've been dreaming about?

RK thinks you are probably an Armenian rug dealer who believes he knows something about rugs, huh?

Well, if you really do, how about trying to show it instead of coming off like an ignorant stooge?

RK will check back here to see if you can take your foot out of your flapping jaws. But probably you will do nothing but try to jam the other one in as well....

Author: Your Grandpa Fri, Dec 30th, 2011 07:53:51 PM

I accidentally stumbled on this thread, and found it hilarious. The blind Azeri-Turk leading the fool RK and the blind RK engaging the Azeri fool. -A couple of clowns.

Author: Anahit
email: zavagyan@yahoo.com
Sun, Feb 7th, 2010 08:35:23 PM

Too good to be truth. How did they manage to weave enormous carpets for Arab Kalifs and Persian Shahs without settled life? May be they used some unknown way of transportation that was lost in the centuries? Did this person buy any carpet? Anyhow, I will be thankful, if someone help me with finding any data on Mr. Volkmar Gantzhorn. If he is a rug sellar or an art expert, and any possible data. Thank you in advance. Best wishes, Anahit

Author: Aykhan Mammadov
email: aikhan@unitech.az
Tue, Feb 26th, 2008 05:24:08 PM

jc, please delete my last post here. Probably it is wrong.

Author: Aykhan Mammadov Tue, Feb 26th, 2008 03:28:32 PM

It is interesting that parllely I opened the same topic in rug-fanatics where it was later banned. There Mr. Barry O'Connel stated that he is luteranian and he has German,English ancestry. But here http://www.persiancarpetguide.com/sw-asia/Rugs/Persian/Borchelu/Borchelu.htm I found he writes about Keshishian as about his uncle. Keshishian is Armenian family name ( as many finishing on -un, an). If he has some Armenian blood then it explains everything why he calls Azeri-Turkish Gazakh rugs as weaven by Armenians because it is the aim of Armenians pretend not only on our territories but also on our heritage.

Author: Aykhan Mammadov
email: aikhan@unitech.az
Sun, Jan 27th, 2008 07:14:15 PM

Paul, thanks for your inclusion.

Actually, my thread is not dedicated to hatred in realation to Armenians, I just wanted to clarify why O'Connel did suppose that carpets wooven by Azeri-Turks in Azerbaijan city Gazakh were wooven by Armenians after 1830, and why just after 1830 ?

I found that he relyed on the book of G. Bournoutian, but that man is Armenian himself, and I obey one axiom - I never rely on them in questions regarding their history.

When I found somebody neutral, neither Armenian, nor Azeri - Georgian historian Zedgenidze who was a ticher in one of the schools of Shusha city of Garabakh ( Garabakh also was in the same Gubernia with Gazakh) in 1890-th then I found the following facts ( as he writes). " There were 18690 Armenians vs 11940 Azer-Tatars and 315 Russians in Shusha", and despite there were more Armenians than Azeris carpets were wooven almost exclusively by Azeris. His explanation was " Azeri men were lazier than Armenian men so that their wives had to weave carpets to earn money..."

Paul, according Zedgenidze ( he wrote the book "Production of carpets and Palaces" in 1891, Tbilisi) Armenians were traders, they ordered many carpets to Azeri-Turks and asked to weave also their names on them. This maybe will help to understand why some even Turkmen carpets might appear with Armenian names.

No doubts that Armenians do produce good carpets and can - why not, but simply I will never call carpets wooven in their cities , say in Erevan, as Azeri-carpets.

Best regards,
Aykhan.

Author: paul smith
email:
Sat, Jan 26th, 2008 07:33:19 PM

RK Replies:

Hey Paul:

Just for the record let us state Gantzhorn's book is a wonderful cheap way to get a lot of mediocre pictures of great rugs.

We do not own the book, nor have we ever read it.

Nor will we.

His theories are just that, theories.

Not until there is proper science applied to carpet studies will there be any chance to prove or disprove many theories, even ones a far out as Gantzhorn's.

===============================

Jack-- Are you not going to introduce Aykhan to Volkmar Gantzhorn?

Granted, Gantzhorn went over the top with his thesis, but there is a lot of "trooth" in his evidence, and the irrefutable evidence of Armenian inscriptions in some of these carpets.

Personally, I would like to see your evaluation of Gantzhorn's ideas, though I imagine you blew a few gaskets when you read his theory that the Turkmen carpets were somehow Armenian Christian in origin.

I find Aykhan's attitude towards the Armenians tedious--Aykhan, it is your fate to live near these people, they wove some beautiful carpets, so did your people, whatever...move on...by the way, Gantzhorn is not Armenian, and neither am I.

Paul

Author: jc
email:
Sat, Jan 26th, 2008 09:52:01 AM

We answered and trust the author of the post above has seen this.

Our comments directly proceed his in the above post.

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